ArtGibbs Sports Business Podcast
ArtGibbs Sports Business Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

#52 - Ken Ungar

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the ArtGibbs Sports Business Podcast we are joined by Sports Sponsorship consultant Ken Ungar. Ken is the president of Charge, a sponsorship consulting firm. We talk sponsorship, E sports & NIL.

 Enjoy!

Ken's Website: https://chargesponsorship.com/

Book mentioned on the Podcast: https://chargesponsorship.com/sponsorship-strategy/

Welcome into the archive sports business podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and in this episode we've got a special guest. We're joined by Ken Hunger, who worked at Indianapolis Motor speedway and all kinds of stuff and now heads up charge, which is a sponsorship consulting company, and he's just got a depth of knowledge on sports business and some of that sponsorship centric work and of course that's a topic that really fits into a lot of what we discuss here and there were some really interesting areas that I learned a lot about and esports and some of the nil stuff with sponsorship. So anyway, it's a great conversation and without further Ado, I'll send you over there now, ladies and gentlemen, can hunger. All right, so I'm joined here by Ken Unger of charge, and they do a lot of sponsorship sports sponsorship consulting really obviously right in the direct vein of what we talked about here on the podcast a lot. So can thank you so much for coming on and I guess I'll just kind of start with maybe a little bit about charge. What what are kind of your main areas of focus? Yeah, Curtis, it's great to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. Unity. So charges a sports marketing consultancy and we do a lot in the sponsorship area. We advise both brands and properties about how to buy or sell sponsorship. So we talked about the kinds of properties that make good sponsorship opportunities, the pricing, the valuation, the types of activities to activate a sponsorship. We really help both buyers and sellers really extract the most out of the power of sponsorship. Where an agency that was founded in two thousand and six. So we've been doing this for a while and we work in all different areas. So on the sports side we're in motor sports and the NFL and NBA and e sports and a variety of different areas, and we're even in the non for profit side. So we help nonprofits make the most out of corporate sponsorship opportunities. It's fantastic. And so how did you how did you get into sports and like sort of that sponsorship niche? I get asked that question a lot and everybody wants to be involved in sports somewhere. Yeah, right, and the answer for me is it was a complete accident. So I I'm a I'm an attorney by training. I have a marketing and communications background of from college and a little bit of professional work prior to all this. But I was actually working for the governor of Indiana and his term was coming to an end and I was looking for my next big adventure and I was approached by the internatlist motor speedway. It was a company that I had known because they were a client of mine when I was practicing law, and so I was asked by the owner, Tony George, what I knew about auto racing, and I told him I know absolutely nothing, and he said good, you don't have to know anything. I'll teach you the racing part. You just have to help me run my business. So that was twenty six years ago and I've been in sports ever since. But it's been a wild ride, I'll tell you. Yeah, well, and so what kind of stuff did you start out doing and how is that evolved? You know, even even before charge, what was what were some of the things you did and saw early on? Yeah, it was really blessed. It was a great opportunity because I really...

...touched all the different areas of sports business. So, for example, when I joined the company, it didn't have an HR department and it was an organization of five hundred full time employees and two thousand seasonal employees. Wow, you know it ran. It runs the Indie five hundred, the largest sporting event in the world. But it didn't have an HR capacity, so I created one. And so that was kind of one project. And then another one that it was just great timing was the in epolis motor speedway was teaming up with international speedway corporation and to develop a facility in the Chicago area, and so I became the lead for Ims for developing what became the Chicago and speedway and then the route sixty six race way. But that was four years of developing a sports stadium from scratch. The last time I developed a sports stadium was never but I had background in construction and in real estate and government and all those things. I tell people all the time sports business is really more about business than sports. So if you unless you're in something like football operations or basketball operations, where you're really you have to know about the sport, you're part of the coaching staff or you're the general manager of a team that's drafting players. Other than that you have to be like really excellent at your discipline and I was a utility infielder and so I got to play a lot of different positions. But I had all these different projects in sports business when I started my career and it's been, it was phenomenal experience. Oh yeah, and that's a fantastic way to start getting getting a touch on all these different aspects. Oh yeah, it was. It was really great. And then by the time I had left the in an episopot or speedway in indy car, I was setting schedules for sports events, I was negotiating broadcast rights agreements with the ESPN and and other networks. I was doing entertainment projects for scripted and UNSCRIPTED television shows. So what a fantastic experience to learn all these different areas. Oh yeah, and what what are some of the things that you've seen kind of change throughout your time in maybe in those areas that you work? What are some of the biggest things that jump out to you? The three biggest areas are technology, technology, the technology, and so I'll give you an example. So even ten years ago, and I'll use it in the sponsorship area, social media was an add on right, it was a value add. Like what are we going to do with social media? I don't know. Let's just, you know, let's add on kind of some twitter activity to you know, round off our sponsorship. Now it is the centerpiece of the sponsorship, whether it's twitter or instagram or facebook or tick tock. And so over time we've seen technology, email marketing and selling tickets, text marketing, all these different things. Technology has absolutely changed sports business, like a lot of different areas of business, but in the course of my career in sports that's been the number one changing. Oh Yeah, yeah, now that the social media is kind of taken like a center stage, and you know, and I think you mentioned it before, you know you can go into a contract negotiation and the you know, social profile gets pulled up and sort of, you know, quantified in terms of the numbers and what it looks like and all that kind of stuff, even in a not just in that as a place to earn, but also in their sort of main contract negotiation. Oh, absolutely. And and it is baked into...

...to everything and it's it's integral right. It started, like I mentioned, ten years ago, value add and now it's integral and and and your right being able to measure it change the game? Yeah, all these different measures kind of enabled us to see the impact of it and a change the game. Yeah, and in a sport like cycling, there's kind of this like gravel cycling that's really taken off, and there's this basically privateer model, they call themselves, and it's it's almost solely on social media. So they work directly with sponsors or, you know, with with someone and they are they're basically voice box, or what they're selling is that social media voice presence whatever. So they get, you know, all of their sponsors directly, you know. I mean it may be negotiated some way, but they're their social media profile is what they're selling, absolutely and that's you know, the social media companies know that, which is why you look at like facebook, for example. You know the rising prominence of facebook live, which is a direct competitive initiative against Youtube, and so they're all trying to capitalize on that social media account right and at its essence. And this is absolutely true in in sponsorship and in sport. What is the most important aspect? Audience. So once these athletes once all, you know, these sports have audience around a social media account or elsewhere, that is key because audience is power and sports and can be monetized and can be monitored. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so the one thing you mentioned in I know you talked a little bit about esports and how that's, you know, kind of speaking of technology, something that's really emerged almost like a tidal wave and has massive audience numbers across many different platforms and in different capacities. But, you know, as that sports mature is maturing, what are what are some of the things that both the athletes and the video game companies and all that stuff, what should it be they be aware of and what can they do to kind of grow that sustainable, tractive place for for, you know, basically revenue for the sport? Yeah, that's a great question. I've been particularly sensitive to the growth of esports just because I've been a video game player literally since the dawn of and so I've watched esports over the you know, ten plus years, almost twenty years, and it's really been amazing. I think it basically has two different challenges and we're starting to see evolution. So we really covered started covering this intensely as an agency in about two thousand and sixteen and even since then it's changed. So the two biggest challenges that we see is one, data. So, for example, you know in two thousand and sixteen, I would watch like, let's just say counterstrike, global offensive. If you watch or match, you could see how many people were taking the twitter this stream, va twitter twitch, excuse me, and so you'll see like one point three million people are taking the stream, but you don't know where those people are. And so the geographical component of that audience is really important because if I'm a US based sponsor and I don't sell my product in China or Europe or South America, I don't really care about sponsorship of an espoard that isn't in...

...the market where I sell my products or services. There's been a lot that's that's happened to kind of narrow that geographic focus, especially with the rise of leagues that are that are geographically focused, especially like League of legends and others, where a sponsor could more predictably understand where their audiences but that's big. That's challenge number one. Second biggest challenge is authentic integration, because what we're seeing, you know, it's fairly easy in the beginning. The endemic sponsors like the keyboard manufacturers and you know, if people who make you know the mouse and our processor and all these different things that go into the technology around computers and esports. That was an easy integration right. Without, without these things, without a big jump. Yeah, yeah, without a great head set, the esports experience is less rich. But now you're a fast ask food, you're a quick service restaurant, you are a car company, you are a bank, your credit card. It's it's more difficult to have authentic integration. Where are you are really a part of the sport in a way that audiences believe it and audiences don't reject it, because I found more than any other sport that I'm aware of, esports, audiences are quick to smell out frauds and they reject they really did. They really reject frauds. So having the opportunities to authentically in a great a sponsor into this, into the sports, going to be a challenge, but one I think that the teams and the League's are are addressing and doing pretty well at. Oh yeah, and what are kind of along those lines? What or how should companies think about, like the activation component, if you know, kind of like you're talking about a way to say not just have your logo on the on the screen or something, but is there a way, you know, if you if you go to the d five hundred, you can have people standing there and handing out the product and you know, but in an esport league or in a stream, what are some of the ways or some of the framework for thinking about activation that might help to authenticate and and make it, you know, really potent for a sponsor? Yeah, I think that's a great question and I and I've seen that's also very evolutionary. So again, like going back five years, and I'm not picking on this company, but like monster energy drink, who's always been really big in the sport activation, was dropping a palette of monster energy drink in the middle of the auditor for free sampling. And I'm not not going that because that's very successful. I take some, I drank it and how I drink monster energy, but I Palette worked. Write the Palette, the Palette of you know how many kids of drink work. But I think that understanding kind of what makes for good at event activation, like what does that audience want to do? I think sponsors are slowly developing. What any esports audience would want versus it's not the same as a baseball audience or a football audience. Like. What makes for compelling activation at event? The the second thing is to understand, especially we've seen this with the covid nineteen pandemic, is that we haven't necessarily had the ability to have at live events where, you know, an audience of ten, Twentyzero can attend an esport event live. And so what is that activation that occurs? And I think the answer ends of being taking whether it's on twitch...

...or some other streaming opportunity, is interviewing players about great plays and great technique, sponsored right with an authentic sponsor, or developing trivia around the game or developing a variety different things that audiences are interested in brought to the audience by virtue of the sponsor. It's so it's whether it's a social media or one of the streaming platforms. I think that non event activation, creating new content, so it's really a content marketing play makes for great activation and Esports, I think. Yeah, and I was going to say, and I'm not, I'm not super familiar with the sports. So is it? Is it have kind of a setup like many other traditional sports. We've got the live events, then maybe those are broadcast. You've got the on site, you know situation, and then you've got the broadcast of that event. or I mean from the outside, it seems like, and I don't know if it's a separate thing like the twitch streamers and and that kind of stuff, but it seems like there's an opportunity, or maybe it's already set up this way, where a lot of the content is, you know, can be done, you know, online and on screen, and it's not just broadcasting a sort of a live event. Or is that? Is that not really how it works? Yeah, no, excuse me. They I think that this is the what's not commonly known about esports is they've have a very sophisticated broadcast of cut kind of process and casters who are the broadcast personalities, are very popular. They are personalities in their own right as popular or more popular many times than the players and provide a great product. There is like that simultaneous broadcast which is, you know, on one of the streaming services as well as it's again we're kind of pre covid, but but a live event which would engage a live audience and and a lot of times the casters and the and and the broadcast would be enjoyed by the live audience as well as the audience online. But again there's an opportunity for sponsored content to be integrated as part of that. There aren't necessarily commercials per se, because that's not kind of what the culture of esports would tolerate. But there's a great deal of sponsoring, a sponsorable opportunities in esports and and generally it's either broadcast a lot, you know, online, live or out event. Okay, and that that sort of sufficisticated broadcast. Did they? Did they go to TV partners to try to get that? Or is it is it something that they broadcast online? They broadcast it. They broadcasted online. Right, it's original court. They are the original cord cutters. Yeah, that's kind of does in fact that. Yeah, they have an even. They have an even kind of crack the code really on television, yet terrestrial television, because the audiences are not the same. Right, like I might not watch an event if I only have television. I'm used to watching it on my Imac, right via the streaming service that I subscribe to, etc. Etc. So it's it is homegrown in house, sophisticated use of technology, use of animation. It's flipping fantastic. Wow. Yeah, and what do you think about the leagues, like the sort of more traditional leagues, having this gaming component that...

...they're that they're trying to connect? Like Formula One, for instance, has their basically they're they have races on on the Formula One games that they broadcast and you know, are trying to kind of push that as well. I think NBA as well. Do you see that that that's going to happen a lot, like a lot of these sort of legacy leagues, are going to have a almost a digital image as well? Yeah, it's that's a great question. And and so what we've seen is by far the fantasy games are make for much more popular esports, much more popular sports, and so the terrestrial sports, though, have recognized that video game playership can increase loyalty to both fantasy leagues and to the live product. So I think Formula One is probably done the best job because they've integrated esports into the live sport. So, for example, running a tournament where the winner of that tournament becomes part of a Formula One team is is really exciting and enticing. Oh yeah, people played video games, but without that integration and a lot of leagues are, with the exception of Formula One and NBA Obviously, with Mba to K, a lot of them are using it as a sideshow. And esports is not a side show and it's not an act, it's not an out of inactivation. It is a legitimate belief system and and it's something that is enjoyed by millions of people, and less a sports willing to commit to that or terrestrial sport, they're going to be less successful in really, you know, ext directing the juice out of what makes esports special and and pushing that audience over to the terrestrial sport, whether it's baseball, football or whatever. Yeah, and is it? Is it in esports that you're seeing like the most growth and sponsorship interest, or or is that not necessarily the case? Are there other areas that or other sports that that have more or less growth or more or less growth in the interest from from corporate sponsors? Yeah, it's hard to quantify because all the different sports start off at a different level. Without a doubt, esports sponsorship has been growing and we've seen it mature and we've seen. You know, there was a tipping point and it was really started by like the quick service restaurants and and others, and the soft drinks and and things that cater to the video game audience, that who are esports fans. And now you've seen a lot of mainstream sponsors kind of enter esports. It is grown, but a lot of other sports have grown as well. I mean, you know, the eight hundred pound gorilla in American sports is NFL, and their sponsorship has certainly expanded. Again Covid, and from a much different basis than the esports exact and a much different basis than the esports. And then you look at you know, globally, you look at soccer or football and you look at Formula One and their sponsorship, again, covid notwithstanding, has been doing quite well. And and then you kind of look at reasons why and and one when when I get to ask that question, one of the things that I point to is the proliferation of things like online betting. That's existed overseas for years. You've seen a lot. If you watch a soccer match, you'll see signage on the pitch, you know,...

...everywhere for online betting. That's not anything new, but now we have it right so in American sports and and our agency kind of looked over the horizon, you know, two years ago or so when online betting was first legalized state by state by state. And it's going to fuel or resurgence in sponsorship. In some cases it's going to crowd out a lot of other sponsors because they have the money in the resource and the inclination right to again to go into an NBA arena, to an NFL stadium, because it's not only they're not only building their brisk business broadly, but you can bet on those sports. So exactly sponsorship you want about activation? That's like the ultimate activation, especially like you know, in game betting, where you know via your your smartphone. That's going to have incredible upside potential for sponsorship over the next five to ten years. And do you think, like net net, bringing all this betting in is going to just raise engagement across a lot of these sports and it'll sort of be more more engagement for sale overall? You know, you said there might be some crowding out, but the fact that people are so you know, is it going to bring more people or bring more more time you know watch time, do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think you know. So there's some arguments about whether whether it's going to increase the total amount of betting. I'm not sure, because there was a lot of underground betting before. But I think that it will increase engagement. And the reason why I think that as I look at the brilliant kind of, you know, decade long roll out of fantasy and so like. For example, I think fantasy football is one of the greatest things ever happen in football from a sports business respective. And the reason is is football could be so regional. Right, I root for my team, right, if I'm a fan of the in Neplis could I'm probably not a fan of the jets. Yeah, but if I'm in fantasy football, I'm going to know all the players and all the teams and so my engagement across all of NFL, NFL football, increases. And so if I if you extrapolate the impact of fantasy on on online betting, I think the same thing is going to happen, that increases engagement along those platforms. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, so I wanted to switch gears just a little bit and get some of your thoughts on the sort of sweeping name, image and likeness stuff that's come through college sports. You know, I was I did college sports, and you know the that that was an issue every day. You know, don't, don't accept the sandwich. If it's not paid for it don't accept you know they're going to come back and get you three years later. You know. I mean it's it was. It was a constant, massive thing and now they've just it's gone. All of it's gone and basically the the athletes, are totally able to negotiate these deals. But, like with anything, there's just many, many new participants kind of coming in at once, and so I wanted to get your thoughts on maybe what you see happening with that and then maybe what are some of the pitfalls or things that that each of the parties should be should be looking at the athletes, that colleges, that companies. Yeah, no, that's a great question and I look at it with with some interest. You know, we wrote a book back in two thousand and seven about athlete branding called ahead of the game. Okay, and so if we look at things about athlete branding in...

...two thousand and seven and fast forward it now to name, image and likeness, specifically in the college arena. Like what are those opportunities for companies? And, at the risk of being called a naysayer, I don't really see a lot of opportunity at this point, and I've had these conversations with colleagues in the industry. You know, I I believe there are probably several dozen players who can legitimately carry national brandwait because their teams are so high profile and if they're in a sport like football or basketball, well, in football in particular, their skills players quarterback, wide receiver, that they get a lot of playtime and hence a lot of airtime. They're not going to be many players, they are not going to be many athletes like that who are going to be attractive enough to get a solid national endorsement deal. And so for the rest, I have a feeling that it's basically going to be like social media influencer deals disguised as endorsement deals, because a lot of these athletes are fantastically talented at building an audience. Member we talked kind of a few minutes ago. You know, the secret to sports is audience, audience, audience, and so they have an audience. Right. There are the Fresno state women basketball players who have a tick tock audience of over a million followers, and so that's an audience and a company will pay for access to that audience, will pay an endorsement fee. But it isn't necessarily related to sports per se, and I'm not referring to that specific instance in particular, but I've a feeling for a lot of the athletes it's going to be really about social media influence then about name, their value of their name image and likeness. Now that the exception could be very regional. Right. You have a you have a regional company that is located around a college campus and they are targeting alumni who also have a high degree of loyalty around whatever sport, male or female, and that perhaps the athletes will benefit from it. But my advice to athletes is not to spend a lot of time trying to build a brand presence. I mean I might the professional players we work with. We tell them, listen, building a brand as a one, two, three, sometimes four year endeavor. You know, I look at like the greats at brand building, Peyton Manning, Jeff Gordon, like you know, a decade of brand building. You're out of college in four years. So I really want college athletes to focus on a college and be if they have aspirations. You're there. Four hundred thousand NCAA athletes. About tenzero go pro. If they're one of those Tenzero, focus on your craft, of of your sport, but don't worry about name, image and likeness, because I don't see a pot of goal at the end of that rainbow for the vast majority of athletes. Yeah, that's a good point. It does. It does seem almost like an influencer deal. You know, if you have somebody who's, you know, kind of a popular person on campus or maybe they're in a fraternity of Sorority, they and they have a big following. You know, a clothing brand might reach out and give them something and the athletes are sort of just off limits. And now that clothing brand can reach out and give the athlete something as well, you know, kind of based on their they're following. What do you think, or do you think it's going to have any effect on the deals that colleges might have, especially like you mentioned?...

You know, it just comes to mind like a lot of like SEC colleges. You know that SEC might have a deal with Cocacola, but you know the colleges it's a lot of times more local and it's kind of almost an alumni engagement thing. Is that going to is some of this n Il stuff going to take from that those sponsorships or not have any effect, or maybe grow for both? I think that's an awesome question and the answer is whether the athletic departments and their athletes can plain ice in the sandbox. So you know, if you have a high profile athlete and and your Athletic Department wants to create a collaborative sponsorship offering, it could become much more powerful if you do it together and you have, you know, revenue sharing that's permitted under NCAA rules and and state legislation. If that's if that's applicable, then you can create some powerful relationships. If you don't, then all of a sudden a couple things are going to happen. One is, as athletes get a little bit hungrier and they're not necessarily having success, you're going to see facebook poet, you're gonna see like twitter and ticktock posts of the athlete in their school colors you won't see the logo because that's not for that's that's prohibited, right. But they're going to start the push that envelope of intellectual property of what's the school, what belongs to the school and what belongs to the athletes, and you're going to start to have intuition. And the other thing is, is what happens when the school has Adidas and the athletes been approached by Nike and all these different all these different collision issues that haven't necessarily been sorted out? It could be a mess. It could be a mess. So me, I like creating win wins, like what we do. I mean sports is a long game, right, it's a small industry and you have to, you know, play for the long term success in a win win atmosphere. So I want athletic departments and athletes to figure out how they can work together to create win wins and everybody profit. Oh Yeah, yeah, and that's it. That's a fantastic point. About that. That reputation of the college. What who's is? What is is the is the person a Texas football player or are they who they are? And and Texas can pull that Jersey or monetize it as they see fit. Right, yeah, exactly right. Wow, it's it's super fascinating from a technical perspective, but it could be super or emotional when it gets beyond the ground right. And I heard someone else mentioned I don't know if this isn't an issue, but you know, like I know, you've worked with with athletes and you know, negotiated sponsorship deals and contracts and there's a lot of you know, I guess, like legal pieces that you have to think through and as you have, maybe you know, a hundred thousand athletes looking for sponsorship deals or working on them. Are there any, you know, potential, not necessarily like specific legal advice, but potential things they should look for? Or so they're so there's not. You know, they don't have liability to this company if something doesn't go right. Or is there anything like that that jumps out at you from kind of, you know, negotiating deals on the pro seene? Yeah, there's always there's always pitfalls and you raise and you raise a great point and so and we've seen this happen, like in the entertainment space, to...

...entertainers early in their career. They, for examples, sign agreements early in their career when they don't have much bargaining power but their long term agreements. So in the sports world it would be they get they then go pro and they have vastly undersold their potential, but they're stuck because it's a binding agreement. So I would always, always, always recommend that before you accept any money, that you understand the strings that come with it and if it's if it's complicated enough, seek out US sports business attorney and every community has some has an attorney that's that knows their way around contracts or sports contracts. But buy or beware are in this case it's the seller beware, because once you put your name on the dotted line it could have long term implications in terms of what you owe that sponsor for a very long time. Oh yeah, yeah, and then I was going to ask just kind of generally. You know, we mentioned it a little bit earlier about activation, and you know when you have something like naming rights or naming rights of a stadium, or you know you sponsor the finish line of an area, what, what kind of things should people think about for activation? What should companies think about to really make that connection, because you know, from the outside you see what what just appears to be all different types of companies in industries that are not necessarily directly related, and some are very successful and some, you know, obviously are not, and it's seems like maybe the activation is the piece that they're not doing right. Or maybe that's not the case, but what are some of your thoughts on on that relate to and il or just in general? Oh, just in general. Yeah, this. Yeah, so activation is kind of the the most commonly overlooked piece of sponsorship. So generally we advise clients that for every one dollar of rights fees they spend, they prepare to spend at least a dollar. So a one to one ratio for activation used to be like the big companies, like the soft drinks and the beers, they could go like four to one, you know, in terms of activation. But even if it's if five to one, fine, but activation is where you really squeeze the juice out of your sponsorship, because having the right to to use someone's name, use a properties name and image and logo is nothing unless you use it. and that's what activation is. It's the act of saying hey, you know, my name is can, I'm from charge and I'm the proud sponsor of this little league team. And so it's only through that process of activation, which now could be like social media, live experiential activation, public relations, all these different areas, that's the key to really to really pulling the success out of the out of the sponsorship, to make it worth the rights fee that you paid. Yeah, and do you have any examples that that really did that well that you've just seen, or maybe that you were involved in or not, but that and maybe a little bit about what they did and in getting it right? Yeah, the best is a beatob sponsorship. I was involved with it, but I won't share the names to spare the innocent. But it was a commercial it was a private jet company that was a sponsor within the sport of auto racing,...

...and really what they wanted to do is they want to be a sponsor to access people within racing who were generally predisposed to buy private aircraft because it's used commonly to move from race to race, especially within the US. And so they sponsored within racing and they had access to team owners who are very wealthy and who bought private jets, and drivers who are also very wealthy and brought bought private jets and through their activation, which was really their one one on one access that they sponsorship allowed, they had a thirty two to one return on investment. So for every million dollars that they spent in an auto racing they got thirty two million back. And so from a dollar for dollar perspective, that's one of the most successful activation to sponsorship ratios that either that I've heard of or that and in this case, that I was involved with. Wow, yeah, that's that's great. Well, are there any any anything else you want to add? Any areas that? I know you've got the some free resources on your website, the blog. Are there any topics that you're diving into that you want to touch on or anything like that? Yeah, so, I mean just generally overall. I mean we feel really strongly that we want to help as many people as possible, especially those who sell sponsorship. So this at the tail end of the pandemic, we wrote a book called sponsorship strategy, powerful approaches to our practical approaches to powerful sponsorships. That's available on Amazon and both hard copy and Kendall. But if you didn't want to buy a book, we have free resources that we want to share with everyone, your audience, especially at Chart sponsorshipcom backslash free stuff and it has things like templates and directories and things that can help a seller get starred. Did fine tune their approach? Again, we really feel it. I mean we believe in sponsorship because we think you have a lot of choices in marketing to do social media and Public Relations and advertising. Of course we're biased, but we believe that sponsorship is incredibly powerful to help both the buyer and the sell or accomplish their business objectives. So we want everyone to enjoy the power of sponsorship. Yeah, and it's no guarantee, but thirty two two one is a pretty good, pretty good return on investment. Yeah, I mean, I own a business, I'll do that anything. Yeah, well, this this was awesome. I mean this is just like a wealth of information and I hope it's kind of an evergreen thing that people can go back to and, of course, go to your your website that charge sponsorshipcom and check out the blog and I'll link to that and I've got notes of the books and things that you mentioned that I'll put in in the description as well and listen to this podcast exactly. The podcast like this would share information about sports business to help us all be oh yeah, but I mean it's a big reason practitioners. Yes, yes, well, thank you so much for coming on and you're welcome back any time. And thank you. Thank thanks, Curtis. So. It was great to be with you.

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